Saturday, August 12, 2006

A Long Response to MENJ's Lina Joy Issue And More.

To the unaware, MENJ has again fired another salvo that has pissed off many Malaysians.Many have responded through their blogs and unlike the last time, I did not immediately post a response in my blog.I did however post a barrage of questions and explanations- a few pages long in MENJ's own blog.However, as of yesterday evening, MENJ has again shut himself out of this reality.To him, its self-defence.To me, its nothing short of cowardice and not holding to one's principles.

First, the article, has been altered.If you truly mean to call us(Christians) retards and what not, please stick to it.It does not matter whether we think you are wrong or not,t hat is secondary, which by the way most of us think you are wrong anyway

At this point I really do not hold MENJ to be a principled fellow anymore.Here are a few reaons why.its a really long post, inspired by Minishorts long post , so bear with me, please.I feel its imperative to read this.A gentle disclaimer: I love my Muslim friends, and if this article in any remote way offends you I am sorry.I seriously doubt it though, as I am commenting solely on people, not even the religion.That being said, please proceed.

MENJ's Calling for Conversions.

With the same breath that he claims to respect other religions he calls every other religion, blatantly false.I can go into why I think this is utter BS, but it is not what I really believe, and I will not belittle another man's religion.I believe Christ is the Way, but I do not hold to the idea that everyone else will burn in Hell.By this, I may be a good Christian to some and a heretic to others.What matters is my conscience and it is clear, so frankly I do not care.But on the other hand, MENJ has gone against mine and many others' level of tolerance by yelling the now (in)famous battlecry 'Convert them all'. That is hypocritical bullshit.You hate it when people preach to your Muslim brethren yet you openly wish for people to convert all of us to Islam.I feel this to be unfairness in the highest degree.And to me, living a good Muslim life is far more effective a preaching tool than all the religious rhetoric you can throw out there.I learnt to respect Islam through the living examples of my friends.Like I've said, three of those I count as my closest friends are Malay-Muslims.And , all three are PAS supporters.All three,MENJ disagree with your stance.One of my friends took up Islamic Studies at tertiary level.He asked me to ask you to rethink your 'Mantiq' and re-read Hadis 40.I am not sure what he means though..He also disagrees with your mixing race and religion(that racist statement you made about Lina Joy's husband's genitalia)and that anyone who says is not a preacher, as Islam does not allow you to speak ill of anyone, let alone a Muslim(as technically, under the Malaysian law that you hate and love at the same time, she is still a Muslim)

I raised a few points in my line of questions to MENJ in his blog, which is now closed to public of course.One is the call to boycott Israeli and American products.This is not hypocrisy, its stupidity.There are three major microprocessor manufacturers in the world.Two are American.The third is British, an American ally.So if you were to boycott all of them, what new chip will you use in our computers?OK, granted US trades with Malaysia as well.Stop and ask yourself, what is it do they trade here.Answer: They buy back ready/semi-ready items which they assemble here.They can easily move their operations to another country, given the rising cost of labour as well.That being that- Your site is being funded partially by Google.Bismika Allahuma is being funded by Paypal AND Google Adsense.Paypal and Google transfer cheques mostly through Citibank.ALL THESE are not exactly Chinese companies.And you already know this- Google Adsense has a policy against targetting a certain religion,race or country.I hope you're aware of this.Use your mentality man.70% shares of all American companies here are locally owned.You hurt 30% of their income, they hurt 70% of yours.I am sure you studied math in school.

Second, the issue of Lina Joy.I will not comment much on this, in respect of the PMs call for everyone to calm down.I just have to say this- I believe there is no compulsion in religion.Even in Islam, prior to declaring a person a murtad, you have to ascertain the previous way of life of the person, whether or not he/she was really practising an Islamic lifestyle prior to conversion.It is an a priori thing, not a a posteori. Also, if a person is an alcaholic, a mentally ill person or have accepted Islam under duress, you cannot declare him/her a murtad(information shared by a close,devout Muslim friend)Also in context, apostasy in time of the Prophet was akin to treason as people who apostatized out of Islam also turned their back on the Islamic Nation.But we cannot say the same thing in the case of Malaysia at present.One, according to MENJ Malaysia is not an Islamic country ( as we do not practise Hudud and Qisas).Sha'ria is not the highest law of the land.Today apostasy may be wrong of a religion but not to a country, at least I do not believe so.But I am not qualified to talk about Islam.I have not experienced the religion so I will limit my argument to what I know and have been told. Even though MENJ feels obliged to put down my religion,as part of his struggle, I feel obliged to respect his.

Non Muslim Rights in Malaysia.

MENJ has been extremely vocal in his call for the Article 11 and IFC to be called off, and he has to his definition succeeded.Well, even to the extent of supporting the holding of anti IFC forums when the PM has clearly asked everyone to stop organizing such forums.Thank you to Syed Hamid for being fair in your comments in the Star today, anyway.Back to the issue I raised in MENJ's blog.He claims that Muslim rights in Malaysia has been infringed by this calls for Article 11 and IFC.I disagree.For starters, there are many Muslims on the Article 11 side of the fence(Liberal Heretics according to MENJ's book) but as he likes to point out, you cannot change the law, and according to Malaysian law, well, they are about as Muslim as you MENJ.I disagree to this point.I ask MENJ or his loyal groupie Rachel or anyone to come up with ONE instance where we non-Muslims have ever challenged the special place of Islam in this country.Muslim rights to worship, or their primary place in our country.I will give you here now, some examples of how the non-Muslim groups have shown our loyalty to this country and our dedication to tolerance, still at this point, where you have slinged mud on our faces.

-The church in Shah Alam took a record number of years before its been approved.In my recollection, only very few churches, temples and mosques have been built of recent.You have constantly been raising up points prehistoric in nature(the big statues in Kelantan of Buddha etc) to advocate your idea of freedom of worship.Do you see us complaining about this?No, and we are instead grateful to the government for allowing us more freedom than the likes of Iran(Shii'tes who do not allow Christians to even hold military ranks) or Pakistan(where even orphanages are burnt when someone accuses a Christian of something).When last I checked MENJ, it is rather uncomfortable to climb on top of a statue to pray.And many rulings were made to the height of churches and temples to the extent one day we might end up praying from a negative height, i.e. underground.But all this does not water down our loyalty to this country.When the country was split in two by votes during the DSAI crisis it was the non Malays that helped this government retain its power, as admitted by the then PM, Tun Dr M.Do not question our loyalty man.We fought the communists alongside you.we never question the right to build mosques in every new township.All we ask for is some freedom to feed our spiritual needs.Is that much?

-There is really very little crawlspace for us in the media as well.I have said that Muslims in the West have more freedom than Christians in Malaysia.I am not complaining, I am comparing.They have their own TV and radio shows, and despite your claims there are no missionary groups in Islam, rest assured they exist well in the West, and its a good thing to propagate religion.There are huge mosques in Chicago, New York and Rome.They rival the Shah Alam mosque in terms of size.And you call Christians an intolerant bunch?The one in Rome is really close to Vatican city.I understand that the Kaa'bah and surrounding areas is called Haram, and that the soil is holy, you cannot even remove it from the grounds let alone build a church there.Do we come forward and question this,and demand some church ? No.Why?Because we were taught, even as it is written in the Holy Quran, 'To You Your religion and to us, ours'.the Quran Verse 2:256 states 'Let there be no compulsion in religion! Truth is distinguishable easily from error!' And you say we are intolerant.Laws are being bended in the West to make place for Islam.workplaces even begin to allow the hijjab.In Malaysian context, thats like allowing me to go to work in a cassock or saffron robe.Crosses are being removed from schools and courthouses because they make Muslims feel uncomfortable.Are we intolerant?

-Ask yourself- why did Article 11 come into existence in the first place?Non Muslims in Malaysia are afraid that even what little we have will be taken away from us.Put yourself in our shoes and if you read in the papers each day about this and that scholar or mufti telling people to stop mingling with us during our celebrations, that cross celebrations are sacrilegious, of temples and churches being torn down, what signals do that send to your brain?In schools that missionaries set up even, and orphanages,any symbols of their legacy is being removed.Funny no one mentioned anything when they were no schools or hospitals around.We are afraid, thats all.We are not interested in infringing our way on anyone, neither are we questioning the supremacy of Islam in this blessed piece of earth called Malaysia.We don't want to be strangers in the land of our birth, where our ancestors too shed blood to build this country.

Insistance that MENJ is not Breaking the Law.

-Well accoiding to some lawyer friends of mine , he is as good as guilty of incitement as he can get, but hey, who are they to know, they only practise law.In any case MENJ, this I say to you, you are only shooting yourself in the foot by saying the law is not applicable in cyberspace.Jeff Ooi and Malaysiakini has been subjected to the law before.You are not above it.No one wanted to report you to the police, but you took the step of blocking everyone from your blog, goodness knows for what.Since you so boldly claim you are not subject to the law, why bother to lock everyone out?Why be so afraid of a police report(I am not advocating it)?Let them investigate and come over and say, MENJ, these idiots are so stupid, the law is not applicable here!Go ahead go and stir up all the racial tension you want man!I hope you see my point, my friend.

May good sense and peace prevail.




23 Comments:

Anonymous not a Muslim, not a Christian said...

"Pissed off many Malaysians"?

That is an overstatement. Pissed off a small percentage of vocal Christian/Malaysian bloggers? Maybe.

The rest of us just do not care.

4:56 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

I would consider those who commented at minishorts post to be many.How 'many' is many to you?

Well, you should care, IMHO as it involves you as well, friend.

5:12 PM  
Blogger Peter said...

Just because I am silent does not mean that I am not concerned. And I do care.

Ponder over Pastor Martin Niemöller's poem:

First they came for the communists,
I did not speak out
because I was not a communist.

When they came for the social democrats,
I did not speak out
because I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew;

And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

10:05 PM  
Blogger The Expedited Writer said...

Very good article, Emmanuel. I am keen to see what MENJ has to say to all of that.

Making us sound like an ingrate and all that, when he's the one who is ungrateful for what our country can stand for.

I am not a Muslim and I am not a Christian, but I care because this thing that MENJ is inciting concerns me and scares me. Why? Simply because i am not Muslim - different - It makes me very afraid of my family's safety as a non-muslim in Malaysia. He threads on calling Christianity an "agama dongengan" and I was told that it doesn't matter if i am non-christian but on christianity side because "kufaars of the same feather flock together".

That just implies any followers of other religion apart from Islam is a kufaar - that means we can be stoned to death for the deed of apostasy if they want to/or threatened to since they've been posting up about that and the methods of conducting the perfect stoning of apostates, etc on the comment section of the article in Bukan Liberal.

I am for one against this, and will rally against this act of hate and discrimination towards other religions if i have to. It's not just about religions anymore if this goes on. It threatens humanity as well as being able to different, to practice a different faith.

I am with you Emmanuel!

11:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder how many people feel of being attacked almost daily by Christians. Just yesterday I read something that was wholly deplorable by a Christian.

Did I complain? No. Because people with faith are blind with their religion of choice. I am glad that I am not tied with any.

12:49 AM  
Blogger cynical-idealist said...

Hear hear! Good one. Now to see if MENJ responds.

2:06 PM  
Blogger spyder said...

Well said! I love my country. Because I love her, I worry for her, as you do; I cry for her, as many of us do and I will fly to her defence as all proud Malaysians will do. For we have but one country - Malaysia - 'Tanah tumpahnya darah ku'. And so, we continue to speak up - because we care enough to do so.

2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I would consider those who commented at minishorts post to be many."

Not many enough! Let's see. Considering the number of people who commented there, some are by the same people etc. Then consider the number of Malaysian bloggers (thousands) and those who doesn't own blogs but merely comment (hundreds of thousands) you will find all your complaining to be miniscule. Like a pin in a haysack.

Similar with Jeff Ooi. He think he may be big but in the real world he is nothing.

5:59 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

Peter-Thanks brother.

The Expedited Writer-Yep, we need to speak up when something is not right.I sincerely believe most Malaysians don't hold to what MENJ stands for.Thanks for the support!

Annonymous-Well, your choice is yours, and I respect that.However, not all a Christian person writes reflects his religion.

Cynical Idealist-He probably will and repeat the same thing again, with a stronger message this time.I have learnt that fundamentalists do not bend, at least not easily ;)

Spyder- I will for my part continue to do so, God willing.

Annoymous#2- For a person who does not type a name you type a lot huh-Anyway if you're not concerned, its your right.And I respect that.Look,if you publish this in the papers and take an poll, how many do you think 'will not care'.Proportionately how many people read MENJ's blog and ...you know what, I shouldn't even bother man.Just go ahead think whatever you want-just look at Peter's comment before you leave.

6:09 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

Any by the way, Anonymous- The spirit of the post is not to prove anyone's popularity or how many ppl disagree with me.

6:11 PM  
Blogger LusciousLuc said...

This is stupid.

Why is everybody getting so hyped up about what dear emmanuel is saying or what dear minishorts is saying? When the whole shite started with dear MENJ writing shite in teh first place?

Shouldn't you all start flaming some other people who more deserve it than emmanuel? ....

MENJ was wrong in writing about having christians convert. MENJ did not do the right thing by condemning christians. For that, I say that he truly is an idiot.

But for what it's worth, I also feel that we are all entitled to our rights to say what we want on the Internet. He's a b*****d, no doubt about that. But he has his freedom to b***h about christians (though i am one myself) and condemn us.

Let him condemn lar.

Let him be the one to throw the first stone.

God sees all. We as his children need not do anything or say anything to that f**ktard.

Seriously.

9:27 AM  
Blogger F.O.N. said...

Spot on dude. COuld not have said it any better.

I guess by shutting out the world, MENJ has proven that he's not interested to listen. Talk about fairness. Bah!

MENJ, don't you have more to say? Hello? I'm sure you have my friend.

10:30 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

lucsious-Yep, what we wrote was in response, and anonymous#2 doesn;t seem to get that.

FON-I am sure he has, question is what and when?

12:41 PM  
Anonymous bodicea said...

emmanuel:Just to say that I support this rage against MENJ. commented in Cynical-Idealist's blog tho.

Malas to repeat what I said ^^".

the Peter dood who commented in here recited a nice poem ^^

Amen to that!

(tho i'm an agnostic. just that it sounds nice to use. hope I offended no one)

Anonymous who claimed to not care: Nobody cares about your apathetic comment in this progressive blog.

It's amusing to note how you return here just to refute what Emmanuel has to say in reply to your comment.

10:48 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

bodicea-Thank you.The word Amen does not belong exclusively to the Christians and even if it did, I am sure God wouldn't mind its use :)

8:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

With the same breath that he claims to respect other religions he calls every other religion, blatantly false.

Islam does teach every religion other than it remains false. Please do read the Quran and the Hadith.

Even Christian religion is very clear it is the only true religion. This is why we do evangelism among Muslims, to convert them :-) Even if the law of Malaysia forbids converting Muslims, REMEMBER, in the Roman Empire, propagating Christianity was illegal yet St Paul the Apostle and St Ignatius of Antioch prosetylised actively among the Romans.

I can go into why I think this is utter BS, but it is not what I really believe, and I will not belittle another man's religion.

But this is exactly what St John Chrysostom and St Augustine of Hippo did. Both belittled the unbelievers' religion. We must be brave to speak up the truth. This is what Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch did. He spoke the truth to Roman Emperor Trajan who in fury threw him into the lions' den. This is called martyrdom.

I believe Christ is the Way, but I do not hold to the idea that everyone else will burn in Hell

Tell us are you Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox? Why do you say you do not hold the idea that everyone else will burn in hell?

By your heretical thoughts/beliefs you are anathema. Do you know the Holy, Ecumenical Council of Nicea anathemised Arius and his ilk. Their abode on the day of resurrection is certainly hell fire.

7:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter said...
Just because I am silent does not mean that I am not concerned. And I do care.

If you care, you would certainly NOT vote for PAS but UMNO. PAS is Parti Agama Satan. Spoiling your vote in election time is a no-no. Christian has just two choices, FOR or AGAINST. There is no neutrality.

Ponder over Pastor Martin Niemöller's poem:

Pastor Martin Niemoller was NOT Christian but a communist. Do you know what that means? A godless Atheist! As such, I do not need to ponder over his filth.

I can read the writings of St Augustine of Hippo, St John Chrysostom, St Atanasius the Apostolic and St Cyril of Alexandria. All of them are 4th century Ulama and recognised Doctors of the Church. This means they are great authority for Bible Study.

Augustine of Hippo was canonised as a theologian by the 6th Ecumenical Council. He formulated the theory of Just War (Holy War) that was the basis of the Holy Crusades.

He is a great Father of the Church, especially in the Latin Church yet he was not even White or European.

8:05 PM  
Blogger cynical-idealist said...

Anonymous: If you're so sure of yourself in lobbying for Christianity, please do use a real name.

From your comments, I'll assume you're Catholic. Regardless of your denomination, you would agree that God is almighty, Christ came to save us, and the Holy Spirit came to guide us, won't you?

You said: But this is exactly what St John Chrysostom and St Augustine of Hippo did. Both belittled the unbelievers' religion. We must be brave to speak up the truth.

While I agree with the last line, I also want to point out that both men you mentioned are just men. Don't you agree that the Catholic church herself has made many mistakes through her long checkered history? What's to say that those men haven't made mistakes too?


You said: Tell us are you Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox? Why do you say you do not hold the idea that everyone else will burn in hell?

By your heretical thoughts/beliefs you are anathema. Do you know the Holy, Ecumenical Council of Nicea anathemised Arius and his ilk. Their abode on the day of resurrection is certainly hell fire.


I say that even with all their authority, the Nicene council are still men.

I'm not disrespecting the Catholic Church here. In fact, I hold it in high regard, and I also look to its teachings for guidance. BUT, men are not gods. Ultimately, it's not the say of humankind on who goes to hell or heaven.

Some denominations teach a believe or burn theology. It's not my place to question them, as I too held such a belief for quite some time. Even so, we will NEVER know until the day of judgement comes.

Whatever happens, I don't care, because our time on earth is not to be spent worrying about the life after. Our time on earth is to do as much good as we can in all the places we can to all the people we can, without discrimination. That's what I believe. God is love, and while I would love to hope that He will save everyone, it is still beyond my comprehension. All I can do is live a good Christian life and show people why I believe.

Whether a person is going to hell or not is none of our concern. Jesus told us to spread the word to the ends of the earth, not shove it down other people's throats. That means that all we can do is tell them about Jesus, and show them what Chritianity is like through our actions. Whether they want to convert or not depends on how much we can genuninely convince them, and also ultimately, it's their own choice.

There is NO point forcing people to convert in name, while their hearts lie somewhere else. Conversion must be voluntary, and must be genuine. Do you think it will please God otherwise? I think this should apply to all religions.

Either ways, I agree with most of the content of this comment.



I'm not too sure if the next comment is from the same person, but it's the next anonymous comment I want to address now:

You said: If you care, you would certainly NOT vote for PAS but UMNO. PAS is Parti Agama Satan.

What gives you the right to call other people satan? Sure we might not agree with their ideologies, but namecalling will only bring us down to their level.

Also, there is NO black and white in this world. I'm sure PAS still has a few good men to its credit, just like how Christianity also has its bad apples.

While I agree that when it comes to faith there is no neutrality, I don't believe that that gives us the right to belittle other religions. Sure there is no neutrality in the sense that we know there one God, and that does mean that we have to alienate all those who don't think like us. If that's the case, how will they ever learn to understand us?

You said: Pastor Martin Niemoller was NOT Christian but a communist. Do you know what that means? A godless Atheist! As such, I do not need to ponder over his filth.

Who gave you the right to call other people names? If you're such an honourable Christian, why is there name-calling, an obviously low blow?

While not all the world believes in the same thing as we do, we still recognise the fact that there is still good in the world. Jesus used the story of the good samaritian to illustrate that. He used that story to teach us about loving our neighbour, so why shouldn't we extend that love nowadays to people of other beliefs?

Whatever his inclination was, those words still hold seeds of wisdom. They came from his colourful history of resisting Nazism and its distortion of Christianity. AND, he WAS Christian. A Pastor, a sheperd of God's flock. More info here

You say: I can read the writings of St Augustine of Hippo, St John Chrysostom, St Atanasius the Apostolic and St Cyril of Alexandria. All of them are 4th century Ulama and recognised Doctors of the Church. This means they are great authority for Bible Study.

Augustine of Hippo was canonised as a theologian by the 6th Ecumenical Council. He formulated the theory of Just War (Holy War) that was the basis of the Holy Crusades.

He is a great Father of the Church, especially in the Latin Church yet he was not even White or European.


I say read more Christian writers. NOt all of them have it correct. Also, you have to understand their contexts and the times they were in to interpret those writings correctly. Try C.S. Lewis, Brian MacLaren, Thomas Aquinas and anyone else you can get your hands on. Read the writings of the last two popes even!

Now about the Just War theory:

To understand that, we have to take a quick overview of Christianity.

In the early days of Christianity, the greatest men and women spread the word via peace and passive resistance to those who persecuted them. They endured humiliation with gentle dignity, and this was how they won hearts and established Christianity as a force to be reckoned in the earlier days.

And then came along the Constantine era, where the sword was used to spread the kingdom of God by forcing people to convert.

It is sad, but God's message of peace has often been mocked by those purporting to act in His name. Didn't Jesus say "Blessed are the peacemakers"? Didn't He say, "Turn the other cheek"?

The "Just War" theory came about in the era after Constantine, when CHristians were trying to make sense of Jesus's teachings and the seemingly opposite actions of the Roman Empire.

This theory gave seven criteria to be fulfilled in order to go to war. This was to balance Jesus's message of love and reconciliation, with their own need to take up arms and defend or acquire new lands.

You could say that these very Christians were COMPROMISING. What happened to "Christianity isn't neutral?" They've already stepped into middle ground by devising means to go to war and bend the rules a little.

Also, in times of conflicts, it's easy to label the other side as "evil" or as the "enemy", BUT, we have to remember Jesus's words that enemies are to be loved. If we don't do so, we will just become self-righteous like the Pharisees that got Jesus so riled up.

We also need to realise that ALL of us, regardless of creed or race, fight the very same weaknesses of greed, lust, anger and hate. We cannot deny that these are the very evils that all of us struggle with, and therefore, we cannot deem our own selves righteous, because we share the same faults as those against us too.

That's why rather than taking up arms, we should deal with these real evils from the root. It may take longer, and it may be harder than fighting a physical war, but this is the most effective way of bringing about peace. First, hearts must change.

I end this comment with a quote from Martin Luther King Jr.:

Through violence you may murder a murderer, but you can't murder murder.

Through violence you may murder a liar, but you can't establish truth.

THrough violence you may murder a hater, but you can't murder hate.

Darkness cannot put out darkess. Only light can do that.


That's why I say, cease with the name calling, and start from ourselves.

10:59 AM  
Blogger cynical-idealist said...

TYPOS:

Sure there is no neutrality in the sense that we know there one God, and that does NOT mean that we have to alienate all those who don't think like us.

Sorry, Emmanuel, for spamming your blog. Didn't check earlier, and just wanted to correct anything that might be misunderstood.

11:05 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

Islam does teach every religion other than it remains false. Please do read the Quran and the Hadith.

Even Christian religion is very clear it is the only true religion. This
is why we do evangelism among Muslims, to convert them :-) Even if the law

of Malaysia forbids converting Muslims, REMEMBER, in the Roman Empire, propagating Christianity was illegal yet St Paul the Apostle and St Ignatius of Antioch prosetylised actively among the Romans.

OK,I won't interfere with that the Quran teaches, but since you mentioned

some Catholic saints, I'm gonna quote to you from the Cathecism of the Catholic Church.

"The Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." (CCC #843)


"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC #847)

Borrowing MENJ's favourite term, Kappish?

Vatican 2's Lumen Gentium States clearly:-

Jews are The "first receivers of God's covenant," Muslims as "followers of Abraham," Hindus and Buddhists as "advanced civilisations . . .with a deep religious sense" (LG, 16; NA 2).

The Vatican's 1965 Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate) states unequivocally that "the Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions." Indeed, Christians should "acknowledge, preserve and encourage the spiritual and moral truths found among Non-Christians, as well as their social life and culture" (NA, 2)

So, you were saying?


................................
But this is exactly what St John Chrysostom and St Augustine of Hippo did.

Both belittled the unbelievers' religion. We must be brave to speak up the

truth. This is what Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch did. He spoke the truth to Roman Emperor Trajan who in fury threw him into the lions' den.

This is called martyrdom.'

Trajan was facing a possible clash of cultures, his political position was weakened after the war with Decebalus.You are taking history out of context.He did not pursue a witch hunt of Christians and only anoyone who
openly declared Christianity was killed.This was to strengthen his hold over the pagans.And Augustine and John, both did not attack religion per se, they were defending the Church from heresies and scandal(St Augustine-the heresy of Donatism, St John-reformed his see from a series of scandals), Augustine wrote one of my favourite verses-'Too late have I loved You, O Beauty of the Ancients yet Ever New.Our hearts were made for
You, Lord, and they are restless till they rest in You.'.St Augustine is actually the saint I identify most with,both he and Paul were reformed.



.................................
Tell us are you Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox? Why do you say you do

not hold the idea that everyone else will burn in hell?

By your heretical thoughts/beliefs you are anathema. Do you know the Holy,

Ecumenical Council of Nicea anathemised Arius and his ilk. Their abode on

the day of resurrection is certainly hell fire.

I am Catholic,not a very good one, but one proud of my faith.This
question has been answered above.Yes I am aware of the Arian heresy and their loss at the Nicene Council.However the CCC has been given both NIhil Obstat and Impramatur and since I am not a Sedevacantist or any other type of Catholic, I am bound to believe in Papal Infallability.Lumen Gentium holds fast to this rule, and therefore what I believe also holds water.Let God be the judge of this.You have no authority to excommunicate me, major or minor,unless you are appointed priest of the Church.Thank god for that.whether or not my statements warrants an anathema - which for your information is a term no longer popularly used is not up to you.If I were to belong to the Episcopal hierarchy in medieavel Church, I would be waving an interdict in your face, but hey, we live in such 'unholy times' do we not?

.................................



If you care, you would certainly NOT vote for PAS but UMNO. PAS is Parti Agama Satan. Spoiling your vote in election time is a no-no. Christian has just two choices, FOR or AGAINST. There is no neutrality.

Bravo!You said it.How is voting for UMNO Christian?Remember that UMNO ministers have been charged with scandal and some found guilty.Remember my post in MENJ's blog, all those decisions were made by an UMNO led goverment.Know your facts.In Terengganu, the Catholic Mission has not been made a church for ages and was only reviewed under the PAS government, for your information.My friends in PAS are much more sensitive to my feelings and Christian sentiments than any government-side UMNO/MCA/MIC person has!However my political affliation is the DAP, for only they voiced out injustices against the Church, even when the Orang Asli church got torn down.

................................


Pastor Martin Niemoller was NOT Christian but a communist. Do you know

what that means? A godless Atheist! As such, I do not need to ponder over

his filth.

Yes he is a Christian.If you can accept Augustine's teachings( a repentant saint, surely you can Rev Niemoller.Besides, did no one teach you- judge the message not the messenger.Judge the message of the Prophet, not he himself, or else, who would have listened to him, he had no standing in society when he began his ministry!Neither did the Buddha, who would take spiritual advice from a Prince?

yes you don't have to tell me what a Doctor of the Church or Angelic Doctor(title bestowed upon St Thomas Aquainas) means.I have known this since I was four.Dont't presume I am THAT poor in knowledge simply because I do not blabber on about religion in my blog, or that I blog about secular things like my job and my life.And again, I did not know you had to be a White European to be a Father of the Church.I suppose all the Greek and Asian Minor Fathers must be rolling in their graves!The Church did not originate from England mind you, Jesus is as Asian as me.

May God open your heart to His.

1:27 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

No cynical idealist of course I do not mind- your comments are always welcome here.I apologize for the late reply as I cannot post at work.

On another note I will be banning Anonymous comments soon.I believe if you want to say something have the courage to place a face behind what you are saying.Even MENJ does that.

1:30 PM  
Blogger Peter said...

How I vote is none of anybody's business. I cast my ballot based on my conscience and guided by my faith in God.

2:20 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel said...

Spot on Brother Peter.Good luck with your Nanyang Siang Pau forum.

1:03 AM  

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home